Luceti Mods (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
lucetimods) wrote2014-02-23 01:54 am
lucetimods) wrote2014-02-23 01:54 am
Entry tags:
Activity Check Results / HMD
The results for the Activity Check are in. Please note that the following characters were either inactive, didn't post to the activity check, or failed to speak to a moderator about their activity. Also added were characters who have joined the game or dropped recently, for your convenience. (And some people who weren't even on the friend/add, for whatever reason...!)
Copy-paste the following here:
A number of you passed the activity check, but barely. (You know who you are.) Try to pick things up, as it's no fun to character-squat.
If there are any mistakes here, please let us know! Additionally, if your character was removed and you're still active, feel free to appeal to one of us about keeping your character. However, please remember next time to stay active and post to the Activity Check. Thank you!
And as always:
HMD
How's My Driving?
This is a crit post for both the community and game and for your characters. If you have something you'd like to see us improve upon with the game, PLEASE TELL US HERE! Anon commenting is on, but if anything gets really nasty there will be warnings and thread-freezing. This isn't required but everyone is encouraged to take advantage of the advice of your fellow players!
Just some pointers: no taking cheap shots, no dragging personal issues into things and for the love of all that is wise and great, please double check your replies and comments before posting them. Sometimes a change in phrasing can make all the difference between a helpful tone and a condescending one.
ALSO ALSO: We'd like to clarify that HMD means HMD- which means it's okay to have both good and bad crit. Some people have expressed concerns about posting good/bad crit when a character already has bad/good crit posted. We'd like to encourage you guys to do it anyway! You can drive well or badly, and even good drivers make mistakes. So give it a try \o
Copy-paste the following here:
A number of you passed the activity check, but barely. (You know who you are.) Try to pick things up, as it's no fun to character-squat.
If there are any mistakes here, please let us know! Additionally, if your character was removed and you're still active, feel free to appeal to one of us about keeping your character. However, please remember next time to stay active and post to the Activity Check. Thank you!
And as always:
How's My Driving?
This is a crit post for both the community and game and for your characters. If you have something you'd like to see us improve upon with the game, PLEASE TELL US HERE! Anon commenting is on, but if anything gets really nasty there will be warnings and thread-freezing. This isn't required but everyone is encouraged to take advantage of the advice of your fellow players!
Just some pointers: no taking cheap shots, no dragging personal issues into things and for the love of all that is wise and great, please double check your replies and comments before posting them. Sometimes a change in phrasing can make all the difference between a helpful tone and a condescending one.
ALSO ALSO: We'd like to clarify that HMD means HMD- which means it's okay to have both good and bad crit. Some people have expressed concerns about posting good/bad crit when a character already has bad/good crit posted. We'd like to encourage you guys to do it anyway! You can drive well or badly, and even good drivers make mistakes. So give it a try \o
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Now, that spar between Ginia and Kakashi: I think you might have oversold Kakashi's abilities, or at least have adopted a tone throughout that whole thread which implies a worrying sort of elitism.
So here's some bullet points which I can expand on with more of my concerns if you think it's merited or just drop if you don't:
- This comment, I will be honest, is most of why I am making this crit. Ginia's skills, as presented in that thread, are absolutely not the level of a genin, let alone a "freshly minted" one. She might not have the bullshit ninja speed or reflexes, but the combat experience she shows there easily puts her on par with nameless mook-level ninja seen throughout the series, particularly in a fight which doesn't use anything except taijutsu. I find that statement (and the attitude it conveys, both out of Kakashi towards a woman who is both a veteran and older than him, and OOCly towards a panfandom existence) really problematic.
- Both this suggestion that fighting styles from his world are inherently superior (???) and this suggestion that someone half her age ought to train her I also find really problematic for the same reasons as the above. Yes, people from the world of Naruto are very powerful but these statements both are strictly about taijutsu, and it comes off very elitist for a panfandom setting.
- Most of the thread, particularly the "taijutsu" portion are very Action-Denied wherein Ginia makes an action and then Kakashi flawlessly (for the most part) counters it. Everywhere here knows Kakashi will probably win, particularly with the ninja speed and reflexes, but I don't thin kit's far-fetched at all for her to get at least one solid hit in there, with her years of experience and the cunning she shows in the thread as a whole. ( one example of an action denied which comes off very badly imo is this one which just flat out says it in the first sentence )
- This. It's possible that I missed him having a in depth introduction to firearms before this but I question both the ease with which he adapts to them coming into the fight and, tbh, the idea that you can substitute fast enough to evade a bullet. I know kunai and shuriken and other shit in Naruto is thrown fast, but not faster than a bullet.
However, this is only how I (and some others) saw it. Like I said, I'm sure you and Cata talked it out while or before you threaded it and agreed this was sound. I simply would ask you to dial back the power-gaming sort of motiff that comes out of the writing there and compromise a little more. Because honestly the same sort of mentality I've seen touched on in other threads related to recruiting people into the Alliance, which just makes things less fun for a lot of people.
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First, I want to say that Cata and I planned everything out well in advance. We talked about every single blow, we discussed outcomes, we also considered Ginia's level in comparison with specifically Kakashi, and then specifically the people within Kakashi's world because Kakashi would absolutely compare her since that's the way he's been trained.
Going into my response, I must say I am a little confused as your language suggests you are familiar with Naruto, and specifically with Kakashi. But canon facts overwhelmingly contradict the majority of the points you've made here. One of the very first things that ever happens in canon is a demonstration that not even Sasuke could land a single hit on him, and Sasuke as a 12 year old was able to perform a Katon Goukyakku no Jutsu fireball technique, which is an A-rank technique. If you watch Kakashi's fight with two S-Rank Akatsuki members simultaneously, Hidan and Kakuzu, you will note that at no point is Hidan capable of even scratching Kakashi even ONCE with his blade. I might also note at the same time that Kakashi was fighting Hidan, he was also fighting 3 of Kakuzu's S-rank heart monsters simultaneously which included lightning, wind, and fire massive S-rank attacks, none which managed to successfully fuck him up enough to give Hidan an opening. That's one Kakashi vs 6 S-rank shinobi with insane powers. Sure, he had the help of Ino-Shika-Chou, but if you watch the fight over here, you will see that Kakashi overwhelmingly fights alone for big portions of it.
You may also want to refer to Naruto and Sakura's post-timeskip bell test where neither one of them were capable of landing a single hit until they pulled the Icha Icha thing at the end, especially Sakura, who at this point, is not only a chuunin, but able to crack the ground open with one hit. (Seeing as Naruto in particular attempted to launch something like 4-5 different clones at Kakashi simultaneously and still wasn't able to get him, that's a pretty big thing to notice.) It's also important to note that Kakashi has 27 years of experience and Ginia has less than 15. Of those 27 years of experience, 14 of which were Kakashi serving in the capacity of a jounin, which is the most elite rank of ninja in Naruto. He's also served in at least two wars canonically on front lines, so her experience doesn't come close to his own. I might also note that Kakashi is canonically considered Hokage level and was in fact a candidate for Hokage for a brief period of time when Tsunade was out of commission.
Some Data Book Stats of missions Kakashi has taken as of the beginning of Shippuden:
197 missions D
190 missions C
414 missions B
298 missions A (Zabuza-level)
42 missions S (Akatsuki-level)
In terms of his assessment that Ginia is like a genin, you may want to consider her actual skills against someone like Sasuke or Neji during pre-timeskip, both of whom were very good at what they did, but nevertheless, still genin. The same thing actually goes for genin Rock Lee. (It should also be of important note that Naruto himself took down a chuunin alone with just taijutsu.)
While I understand that you may be bothered by the "elitism" in Kakashi's thinking, can I ask if you have any canon evidence that would suggest Kakashi himself would think anything else? Not only did she charge at him directly (he canonically thinks to himself that Naruto and Sakura were "naive" to come at him head-first) each time when she tried to spar with him hand-to-hand, but she also didn't do anything that would potentially give her leverage to distract him for even a moment. Those were his assessments of her, and that is also why he believed she could stand to be trained by someone who is very skilled.
As for the age thing: Kakashi doesn't really care about that. He was 5 years old when he graduated from Academy, 6 years old when he became a chuunin, 13 years old when he became a jounin, and 14 years old when he joined ANBU. Which means, his entire life he's had to work with people much older than him, possibly train next to or alongside them. Canonically, during the Zabuza arc, he stated that there are some children who can be younger than Naruto but even more powerful than himself. This is a clear canon acknowledgment that he understands age does not indicate level of ability or power.
In terms of Kakashi adapting to firearms, Kirk gave him a demonstration and instruction in firearms (we did not play it out, it was handwaved but then there were mentions of it over the months I've played Kakashi here and there, and we also discussed it several times). Canon evidence does suggest that Kakashi or ninjas in particular are capable of using kawarimi no jutsu at point-blank range or within a milliseconds. To go back to the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu, there was a moment when Hidan did in fact catch up with Kakashi and carved him up. For a moment, it looks like Kakashi actually lost because not only did he just lie there for a moment, but Hidan was right on top of him. But then, he poofs into a log and it turned out that Hidan had sliced a log. During his fight with Pain, he faced off against one of Pain's crazy paths, which actually had a freaking rocket launcher. Kakashi actually zapped away that rocket with some dumb eye hacks and then rather unspectacularly died.
So, to sum up the above: canon not only overwhelmingly supports and addresses every point of criticism you made regarding the fight, but if you were to actually sit down and rewatch some of these fights as I did while I was actually playing this thread out with Cata, you'll notice that I've actually dialed him down, not up. If you'd like specific examples of how I've dialed him down in comparison to canon, I would be happy to provide those.
Regarding the way he is written:
When I write Kakashi, I do so through free indirect discourse, which means at least 99% of the time, what I write, whether that be prose or brackets or dialogue, is only from his perspective; the narrator is Kakashi, not me. I only insert myself very rarely as a narrator during moments when it's very obviously me stating something, but the writing and tone and everything changes when I do that, and is usually in
strikeout.I am very sorry, but I cannot dial back how he thinks about his world or techniques, because to do so would compromise the very nature of the character and frankly, in my opinion, make him OOC. You're talking about a dude who's been doing this for 27 years of his life. It's all he knows, it's all he lives for. He literally has nothing outside of being a ninja. He is not shown capable of having a life outside of being a ninja at any point in the entire series, other than the rare moments when he's reading porn. He has no reason to not think the things he thinks, specifically everything he is thinking here.
Not everyone roleplays the same; many people, when they write narration, position themselves as narrators in brackets or prose. I am not, and never will be that kind of a roleplayer or writer. My character will always be the narrator, and as such, my characters thoughts/feelings/beliefs will bleed into the writing. That being said, I hope you understand that I certainly do not believe the things Kakashi believes. I also do not think that Naruto is the most "elite" canon in the game, but then, neither does Kakashi. (DBZ would outdo them overwhelmingly, and so would quite a number of other canons in the game.)
Of course, I want to make the alliance plot as fun as possible for everyone, but I can't do so at the expense of making my own character OOC. I hope you can understand how I feel. If you have suggestions as to how I can address these issues without sacrificing characterization, I would really appreciate that.
Also, I would just like to add that if the "some others" to whom you refer have any suggestions or criticism, they are more than welcome to approach me here or privately via my own HMD. If anon-commenting is more comfortable for anyone, I am fine with that as well.
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How is Kakashi's own internal, in-character train of thought possibly problematic toward "panfandom existence"? (what does that even mean, anyway?) Kakashi is arrogant. That is a part of his character. He is extremely good at what he does and he knows it. Being OOCly offended by IC opinions or actions is, frankly, pretty stupid.
As well, with regard to recommending Rock Lee, remember that Lee is an extremely accomplished specialist in hand-to-hand combat. He's better at it than a lot of full adults (which... dude, Lee's 18 in game by now. He's not a child by pretty much anyone's standards anymore) and he's absolutely the correct person to go to for improvement in that area. It's not problematic or dismissive or whatever. That's a solid, helpful suggestion. Kakashi goes 'Who's the best person here for straight up hand-to-hand training? Oh, Rock Lee, that's who.' Remember that even as a genin, Lee's hand-to-hand was basically astounding, even to elites. He's only gotten better since then.
As a final note, who are these "other people" you're referencing? You speak for yourself, let them speak for themselves if they have stuff to say. The "silent majority" argument looks pretty damn weak. Own your opinions!
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There's nothing wrong with pointing out that other people have the same opinion. All it implies is that a discussion was made, and more than one person has a similar concern. In several cases, people don't even bring up issues on an HMD unless they're sure other people are seeing the same issue they are. Or at least that's the Luceti norm.
Even if it wasn't, there's no need to be so vicious, especially for a criticism that was not left for you.
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Anyone can have an opinion, sure, but I was under the impression that HMD is specifically for feedback that is not only well-educated, but clearly backed up with canon examples. If the only criticism is a personal opinion, I'm sorry, that does not stand in the face of overwhelming canon facts.
no subject
The part where my concerns overlap with Charles' as stated above deals with what he mentioned about superiority. I don't think you mean it intentionally; really, I think what it all comes down to is a matter of tone. Some of Kakashi's tags come across heavy-handed on this (initially asking only for people with military backgrounds or superpowers on the alliance post, to paraphrase, or comparing Ginia to a freshly-minted genin). It can be mildly off-putting sometimes, but like I said in my lower comment, a lot of this can be solved with simple word choice.
To go back to that example of comparing Ginia to a genin, as that was one Charles brought up himself which I agreed with, I notice that in your examples you're using Sasuke, Neji, and Lee as genins for it. These three were exemplary for their ages - two were the #1 Rookies of their year, and Gai's kids had also been held back a year at the time we're introduced to them.
Tl;dr, they're not exactly what I think of when I think of "freshly-minted" genin, which makes me ask: is the comment more reflective of what Kakashi thinks of when he thinks of genin? When I think of a freshly-minted genin, however, I think of Sakura on the day of the bell test, or some of the fodder chuunin-hopefuls in the Forest of Death. Just from reading her tags, Ginia's clearly above that level imo. You mentioned to Charles, though, that you write his tags entirely from his perspective, so if that's the case I suppose it could make sense.
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strikeoutfor comical effect! So pretty much what you read is what Kakashi thinks. And you know, he's a dumb genius and he thinks of SASUKE and NARUTO as examples of "genin." And Naruto could do kage bunshin no jutsu (a kinjutsu, technically) and Sasuke could do a fucking Katon Jutsu! Plus, when he thinks "freshly minted" he means like within the first YEAR. That to him counts as "fresh" because you can remain a genin for many years!I hope that helps!!!
Edit: AAAND just an addendum.... if you remember what Naruto and Sasuke did within their first year, you can understand Kakashi's POV. =_=;
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And LOL, yes. I can. Main character no jutsu.
Thanks for clearing that up!
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Remember, I'm originally from Kannagara, where we were used to doing stuff like well, the stuff you saw in Kakashi's arrival thread. And that's how I RP! ♥
Edit: Also, regarding Kakashi's whole idea of "freshly minted genin." It occurred to me that he's an asshole because if he meant to say FEMALE genin, he would have actually made that distinction. Unfortunately, Kakashi is indeed part of the patriarchy =_=; and does dumb shit like that. "Genin" to him is male. Female genin would be a female genin. My muse is a douchebag.
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